The TT fleet in 2022

ropax

Member
The TT fleet in 2022:
- 2 newbuildings from 2022
- 2 ferries from 2001
- 5 ferries between 27 and 34 years old... .

Lets hope, that TT is happy with the newbuildings and will order 2 similar newbuildings more soon - similar like 1986/87 with 2 more following in 1988/89.
 

Risberg

Active Member
At least they obviously need more ships, as they intend to sail with nine ferries when the two newbuildings have arrived, especially as they obviously have plans to start their fifth route; Trelleborg – Gdynia. They've already complained about have being banned from the new terminal in Gdynia, according to the Polish member szcz49 in the Swedish forum sjofart.net, but they also consider using the old one, as the present companies move to the new one.

As I have mentioned before, the new Ro/Pax ferries (not only the two of TT-Line) reminds me of the combined buses and lorries in Northern Norway in the 20th century. They look like two ship halfs, being built together. One part in the bow with passenger facilities above the bridge and lorry space under it, and one part aft, being a pure ro/ro part of a ship, with open upper deck and a funnel so low, it doesn't reach above the front part. Could be nasty to stay on the outside decks if the wind comes from behind, like it was on the Hurtigruten ships MIDNATSOL (1982), NARVIK and VESTERÅLEN (1983), before they were rebuilt.

As for the bridge I quite agree that it hasn't to be on the top, as, also mentioned by me before, when so, the view down to the quay, when docking, can be limited in foggy weather.

Furthermore, if the capacity is to be increased from Trelleborg, it has to be by larger ships, not more frequent departures, as even the new harbour in Trelleborg will have limited capacity, when it comes to number of ships being able to depart or arrive. The entrance channel doesn't allow ships to meet and the weather conditions are such, that you cannot have one channel for ingoing and one for outgoing ships – the outer harbour would then be too unprotected.

Trelleborg, the biggest ro/ro port in Scandinavia, already has fifteen-seventeen departures per day by 13 ships to four destinations. When one ship is delayed, there sometimes, especially on Monday and Friday afternoons, is a traffic jam, with ferries being forced to wait outside the port.
 

ropax

Member
Yes, TT wants to have the partly open truck-decks for dangerous goods... .
A Ropax is always a compromise... - the best things from 2 worlds combined.

But the 2 TT-newbuildings seems to offer more public space, lounges and restaurants as the older TT-ships... - also the pax-capacity is a little bit higher also... - so these ships will be more attractive also for passengers.
I think it would be a good solution for TT to order now so fast as possible 2 similar ferries more - maybe only for ca. 500 Pax instead of 800 as these 2 actually newbuildings. They must have still a lot of money, the 2 newbuildings had a very low price and the last 21 years was nearly no investment but mostly often all ferries in use every day and night and usually good booked (the 13 Mio Euro invested 2019 for Marco Polo doesn`t matter... - this was coffee-box-money for TT) with trucks and trailers and in summer all ferries full booked with holiday-cars also who pay high prices... . And this 21 years longtime with 6 big ferries... (+2 years Marco Polo).

I think, if TT want to be on the safe side also for longtime in future and want to expand fleet and routes longterm - they need additional other harbours in Sweden or Scandinavia also. Now to start Trelleborg - Gdynia/Gdansk is ok. But maybe from Kalmar/Karlshamn/Sölvesborg/Öxelösund/Södertälje/Nynäshamn/Norvik to gdynia/Gdansk would be also a good route ? And why has Polferries still a Monopol for Gdansk/Gdynia-StockholmArea with a 42 years (!) old ferry (Wawel) ?
Destination Gotland shows the way - Rostock-StockholmArea would be also a good TT-route... - now it is a DG route. TT is often to much conservative... to start new lines to Swinousjcie and to Klaipeda was a good decision - but some other chances they have not used in the past 20 years. Look Stena Line and Irish Ferries - they start very fast more new lines - often with old used ferries for the first couple of years, Irish Ferries now suddenly is a big player with low investments in one of the biggest routes in Europe, Calais-Dover... . Others like P+O Ferries who do not not start new routes will be smaller and smaller, compare P+O in the 90ies and 2022 so you will see it... .

Norway - Holland(or Emden/Wilhelmshaven/Cuxhaven) was for me a logical route since 50 years - now Holland-Norway-Line is starting this.
Furthermore i see very good chances for Rostock-Oslofjord. If Color Lines Kiel-Oslo works good with 2 XXL-ferries (+1 truck-ferry) since "100" years, why Rostock-Oslofjord should be a problem ? From Rostock it is the fastest way to East-Germany, Munich, Vienna, Praha and East-Europe - much better and easier to reach than from Kiel. In Oslo is the harbour-place of Stena Saga still free and furthermore in Moss is the space from the former Moss-Frederikshavn ferry from Stena Line free. TT has already experience with a stop in the middle of a route - so here is the option for a short stop f.ex. in Frederikshavn or Skagen also. So also this would be a chance f.ex. for TT-Line to expand... - TT must offer in the future better 1 or 2 more other harbours also in Sweden/Scandinavia - also because Trelleborg is limited as you have said.
 

Risberg

Active Member
I believe TT-Line knows what they are doing. They are not doing "ad hoc" solutions like for example Stena Line, but do long term planning. The Trelleborg – Klaipéda route for example, started with TOM SAWYER or ROBIN HOOD once weekly for two years, before they bought the MARCO POLO and made the route five round trips per week. They've got unexpectedly many cars on that route; Lithuanian workers in Norway who find the DFDS ferries between Karlshamn and Klaipéda too bad (and even prefer MARCO POLO!). They engaged themselves in the planning of the new terminal in Gdynia, but has now "lost the bid" and will be denied using it (according to EU rules?!).

So far TT-Line has been very true to Trelleborg, which in a way it's their "home port" (and for two of their ferries), in spite of being German, and that "TT" originally stands for Travemünde – Trelleborg, not the opposite, as many Swedes believe. But I know that they also have considered using Ystad's enlarged new port (which, however, now maybe won't be further build, due to lack of electricity in Scania). In fact, their "Świnoujście" adventure started with trying to buy Polferries, which they were denied. I doubt that they would be interested in other Swedish ports, without any connection to their routes to Germany. Actually, for a short period they tried sailing between Rønne on the Danish island of Bornholm and Świnoujście once weekly one summer, but didn't continue.

I simply think that the reason for Polferries' monopoly between the Stockholm area and Gdánsk/Gdynia is that the idea of routes between the Stockholm area and the Continent simply isn't that good. Fast ferries tried Södertälje – Rostock without success. The new Rostock – Visby – Nynäshamn is a failure, and will close when the subsidies from the Swedish government disappear. I was on the first trip from Rostock to Visby. In spite of being marketed a month before start we were some ten gangway passengers, and only three-four of us left in Visby, some twenty cars, one lorry and three semitrailers without truck.
 
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ropax

Member
Yes, but such tests like TTs start to Klaipeda - would be also possible to other harbours and routes in the last decades.

Sometimes Stena was faster, compare f.ex. Nynäshamn-Ventspils or Karlskrona-Gdynia in the 90ies with 2022.
In the past started with an old smaller ferry - but 2022 BIG important routes in the Stena-Network with 2 brandnew very big ferries to Ventspils and with 4 ferries in use... and i think 2 newer bigger ferries will also come - to Poland in the next years.
Stena normally needs to order now 2 XXXL ferries for Harwich-Rotterdam, than the actually Harwich-XL-ferries can move to Kiel-Göteborg and the Kiel-Göteborg pair to Karlskrona-Gdynia for to replace the very old Stena Vision and Spirit. ((but this go to much off topic...))

The Rostock-Södertälje experiment from Superfast Ferries you can forget completely - this was started in january and finished in march with only 3 month operation = nonsens.
I have had planned to use this ferry in the first summer - but before i could book it was already finished operation.
For to get circa 90% of the theoretic passenger- and freight-potential of a new line you need minimum 3 years operation.
All people must first know the new line, it takes time until it is in all (touristic) maps and cataloges, travel-guides etc. .
And the freight-customers need also a lot of time for to plan her delivery-routes new if there is a new connection.
So we must wait also 2, 3 years what happens with the DG-route Rostock-Nynäshamn.

So f.ex. now if the new line starts in april between Kristiansand and Emshaven - it takes 3 years operation until this line have reached ca. 90% of the potential theoretic customers. So it is right to charter a ferry first for to see how much people and cars / trucks / trailers will be change from old routes (Color Line, Fjord Line, Kiel-Göteborg etc.) to the new route directly to Holland. Then later it is possible to buy new (or used) ferries in the right size.
 

Risberg

Active Member
I quite agree with you, when it comes to the Kristiansand – Emshaven route.

But the Rostock – Visby – Nynäshamn route won't survive 2-3 years, when it will be clear that the subsidies are given on false premises.
 
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ropax

Member
The actually Drotten is not a perfect ferry for Rostock-Nynäshamn. But if DG change in the next years to a ferry with 2 trailerdecks and more cabins for cruise- / footpassengers i think it could be a really good route if the prices are low so that a big shoppingtrip in Germany in winter is a good deal for swedish people. Specially all alcohol is in Germany much cheaper than in Sweden, also all things from Hardware-store ("Baumarkt" - often half price than in Sweden), fashion, shoes, all food etc. . And in summer the ferry will be full with german tourists... - especially Stockholm is very popular for germans.


If swedish people pack the car really full a trip to Rostock can be a good deal... -
but also as foot-passenger with 2 of these kind XXXL-baggage it could be a good trip for swedish people from the greater Stockholm-area.

 

Risberg

Active Member
Bear in mind that the Stockholm area still has ferries with tax free via Åland to Finland – one of the conditions for Finland to enter the EU in 1995.
 

ropax

Member
Yes, sure, i have tested the most Viking- and Silja Line Ferries in the 90ies and also watched what happened in the night in Mariehamn or Langnäs, but the Tax-Free-Prices onboard are not cheaper than in ALDI, LIDL, REAL etc. in Germany... . And on the ferries the swedish people buy only Vodka, Whiskey, Cigarettes and maybe Parfum... . All normal other things and products are in Finland not cheaper than in Sweden.

So a trip from the Stockholm-area to Rostock is worth it only if you then buy so many products as possible (f.ex. a new phone, mowing machine, drilling machine, tools, TV (up to the half price than in Sweden !), a bike / scooter, toys for kids, fashion-clothes, brand(-sport)-shoes, hygienic-products, longlife-foods (f.ex. Müsli), marmelade (half price in Germany), coffee, choklad, Haribo etc. and so much beer, Vodka, Whiskey etc. as possible. Also non-alcoholic juices, mineral-water, softdrinks - everything is much cheaper in Germany than in Sweden.
There are some big shoppingcenters (Ostseepark, Citti Park, Hanse Center, Hanse Outlet etc.) only 3, 4, 5km from the ferry in Rostock - if you plan it before what you want to buy in which shop the circa 5-6 hours between arrival and departure in Rostock is enough time for big shopping. Without car you can go by Taxi, make the trip together with friends or family = shared costs for Taxi, cabin on the ferry etc. .
If you would book f.ex. 21.febr. Nynäshamn-Rostock and return on 22.febr. the complete ticketprice would be 1068 SEK inkluding a pullman-seat.
If you buy some things of my list here in Rostock it is easy to make a good deal if you are living in the Stockholm-area.
But we come off topic here... :)
 

Risberg

Active Member
We certainly do, and one could almost believe that you were hired to promote shopping in Germany. I still regard the chances for creating that demand among stockholmers, on a ferry line, that mainly has been started as a ro/pax route, to be extremely small.

I mean, not even people in southern Sweden buy all these goods that you mention, in spite of actually going by the ferries to Germany to buy cheap booze and bear.
 
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ropax

Member
Mhmm - we know personally swedish people who are travelling from Smaland in South-Sweden 2 or 3 times every year for exactly this kind of XXL- shopping in Flensburg. They have the gasoil/fuel for free because it is a Volvo "company-car" (with small trailer) and they need just to pay for the 2 bridges (Öresund + Storebelt).

For ferry companies it is just a question of the right ship with high Pax-capacity and the right timetable and low dayticket-prices. Look to Calais - it is booming now with british "Booze-Cruisers" with giant brandnew shoppingcenters today because in Britain also many products are now more expensive than in France. There are plans to call the complete city of Calais as a "Tax-Free-Zone". This was also one reason for Irish Ferries to start so fast as possible with Dover-Calais for to get a part of the cake there and the new E-Flexer for DFDS with the largest Tax-Free-Shop onboard. Sure - trucks and trailers are number 1, most important - but also these Shopping-people bring a part of the money... .


Everything is a thing of marketing and advertising, the shoppingcenters in Calais often has special english-speaking staff, some accept British Pounds also and the people from London are shopping there like crazy... - the Dover-Calais ferries every day full with shopping-tourists.

But back to TT-Line :) :
TT has much to less Pax-Capacity for shopping-cruisers and the timetables are also very bad for shopping in Rostock or Lübeck.
My proposal for TT:
To buy now 2 so big as possible Katamarans/Trimarans from Austal or Incat as replacement for the both 34 years old HuckFinn and TomSawyer. Austal and Incat can offer now fast ferries with a capacity over 2000 Pax, 400 cars and 600, 700, 800lm for Trucks - and with production in Phillipines much cheaper than a RoPax also - and need much less crew also than a RoPax. This sounds as less small truck-capacity - but with the higher number of departures per day it will be similar capacity for Trucks than today. So the "fast" truck-drivers can choose the short route from Rostock and the "need to sleep onboard" truck drivers can choose the slowly departures from Travemünde and Swinoujscie (2 ferries then from Poland) - the actually 5,5 - 6 hours traveltime is not optimal for sleeping today also.

Traveltime ROS-TRE then ca. 3 hours / 3:15 with circa 32 knots (in the 90ies it was 2:45 with the Delphin with 36 knots), so every ca. 4 hours a departure in both directions (7:00/11:10/15:20/19:30) - this will bring a lot more cars and people to the Rostock-Line (then better than Scandlines Gedser-Rostock+Öresundbridge also) and is also very attractive then for shopping-tourists with ca. 5 or 9 hours for shopping = very very attractive. Furthermore it is also possible then to have one (or more) own big shopping-bus which is going daily from the South-Swedish-cities (Helsingborg, Landskrona, Kristianstad, Malmö, Lund) directly to a Shoppingcenter in Rostock, there is big competition between a number of shopping-centers, maybe one shopping-center will pay for the costs of the bus also like often it is usually in other cities.
https://ccsiammall.com/wp-content/u...9DF-4E22-AF0D-71F52610302C-e1545225708680.jpg
Höffner f.ex. is Konkurrent of Ikea and has free shuttle-buses in many cities in Germany (f.ex. in Erlangen, Fürth and München) and has also a big store in Rostock.
In Rostock is everything, a lot of "normal" shoppingcenters, XXL-single-stores like Ikea, Höffner, Globus etc. and also a Fashion-Outlet-Center. So good chances for bus-shuttles in cooperation with TT full with shopping-hungry swedish people... .
And with another buses directly to Hamburg-Reeperbahn and Berlin-Kurfüstendamm you have every day some hundreds Pax on the ferries using the restaurant onboard etc. also before the first "normal" car, touristbus, motorhome or truck is onboard.

This is my point of critic in generally, Stena Line is doing nothing for Pax since 20, 25 years, just closing routes only like Oslo-Frederikshavn, Frederikshavn-Moss and Sassnitz-Trelleborg for to open new freight-based routes in the baltic region (DFDS similar) - and also for TT-Line would be a lot of Pax (+cars +touristbuses) more possible than today with the very old and small HuckFinn/TomSaywer and long traveltimes between 5,5 and 10 hours to Travemünde and Rostock. Trucks and trailers are very very important - but why not use also the "sleeping" big potential of Pax ?
The failure was/is that the ferry companies want, that the people buy many things onboard like in Tax-Free-times. So when tax-free ends in the 90ies they have closed routes (like also DFDS Scandinavia-England) or ordered more freight-based ferries.
But the big price-differences between Sweden and Germany are still today and there would be enough money to get for TT (and others) only with
- the shopping-cruisers-ticket price
- and her use of the restaurant/cafeteria onboard tur/retur
So forget here the former onboard-Tax-Free-money and let the Swedish people go shopping in Rostock like the British people now shopping like crazy in Calais and with the right ferries and faster traveltimes the TT-ships would be full daily with many hundred or more Pax... .
((No - i have nothing to do with any shoppingcenter in Rostock... :) - just i would be more happy with more modern comfortable and faster ferries in generally...))
 

Risberg

Active Member
People from Småland are very special (for norske lesere, de er Sveriges sunnmøringer).

The DELPHIN was purchased in a time with other oil prices. Polferries tried a similar boat. No success, and both had to cancel many tours, due to windy weather.

Hardly believe that buses to Hamburg and Berlin would generate hundreds of passengers on the ferries.

I wouldn't call HUCKLEBERRY FINN and TOM SAWYER small.

If TT-Line was to market their passenger ferries for shopping and party (the latter the ferries of TT-Linie actually were in the 70's; as students my friends and I made many enjoyable round trips, including six-seven hours in Lübeck) they would have to increase their personel (today the "restaurant"s and shops have the oddest opening hours) and lower their prices – I believe the company may have considered this and come to the conclusion that that wouldn't pay off, but concentrate themselves on being an effective transport company.

Typically the DFDS closed their newly opened Copenhagen – Trelleborg – Gdánsk route when Poland joined the EU, i.e. when tax-free disappeared, although they never admitted that was the (obvious) reason.

And then we have the hopeless Hafenhaus in Travemünde......
 

ropax

Member
TT was a pioneer, the first one 1995/96 with the Delphin as "big" Katamaran, it was similar like a prototyp... - but now it is 27 years later and both yards offer now better constructions of her Katamarans / Trimarans and has also much more experience. All over the world these kind of ferries are operating very well, f.ex. in Canary Islands also the second ferry company (Naviera Armas) is changing the fleet to Katamarans, Fred Olsen has just got the second generation of big Trimarans and since more than 20 years the complete fleet only with Katamarans and Trimarans.
The Delphin was for 175 cars and 600 Pax only - but today 430 cars + some trucks and 2000 Pax is no problem - with nearly the same small crew and more modern propulsion-systems and newer fuel-saving engines, LNG etc. . Also 36knots is not necassary - ca. 31, 32 knots seems for me ideal for ROS-TRE what means furthermore less fuel-consumption than with 36knots. The 24 years old FRS-Baltic Katamaran Sassnitz-Ystad is travelling only with ca. 28, 29 knots. Ystad-Bornholm is operating since many years with Katamaran - why should be TRE-ROS a problem ?
Full with trucks - today no problem and also possible to order with 1 deck for trucks and 1 deck for cars.
Fred Olsen is also operating in stormy weather, the trucks to the smaller Islands are going daily:
F.ex. with the new Katamaran for Fjordline also - i can not believe that in Skagerrak the waves are smaller than between ROS-TRE... .
And in some days every year if it is really hart storm - if TT is planning the future with ca. 9 ferries it is good to hold one of the oldest for drydock-replacements of the others and if another ferry has any technical problems - these "Stand-by"ferry can then be used also as "storm-replacement" for a Katamaran/Trimaran also.

Actually 99% of all touristbuses Sweden-Germany use the bridges or Puttgarden-Rödby/Rostock-Gedser... .
There is no offer for buscompanies ROS-TRE because the pax-capacity is to small, 1 double-deck-bus can be up to 90 pax... .
The max. theoretic capacity of HuckFinn/TomSaw is 400 only. But there are much less seats inside - so in fact with around circa 200-250 pax these ferries are complete full and it is uncomfortable to sit there inside 6 hours (you must share a table with foreign people) in the Restaurant - and only the trucks (sometimes with 2 people inside also) alone means much more than 100 Pax... . So this is what i call a smaller RoPax-ferry... also if she is 177m long. Really big ferries has capacity for 2000 or 3000 Pax.

I want not back the old ones TT-ferries from the 80ies (typ OLAU) with Party etc. . The both brandnew RoPax-ferries arriving now in 2022 seems perfect for Travemünde-Trelleborg. But for the Rostock-Route is much more possible with shorter traveltimes for Day-shopping-tourists... , 5,5-6 hours is too long for cars and touristbuses and to short for sleeping of truck-drivers... . I was often in the 90ies onboard of Delphin but have never again used this route after the Delphin was sold... . Both Stena and TT have "forgotten" this route... - there is no development since more than 20 years... .

DFDS...:
Lets hope, that the new Holland-Norway-Line will be a success and they start some years later also a Sweden-Norway-England line (Göteborg-Kristiansand-England) similar as DFDS had it in the last century... :) .

Travemünde:
I have never understand why in Travemünde is no connecting direct-bus between the ferries and Lübeck-trainstation - it is really a terrible situation for foot-passengers. And similar between Trelleborg-harbour and Malmö-Central.
Older used buses are available very cheap and a busdriver costs only ca. 1800,- Euro per month in Germany... .
F.ex. swedish doubledeckers with 84 seats for 22.000,- Euro from the Stockholm-Norrtälje Line 676 would be perfect for such short ferry-shuttle-lines with only very few departures per day:
And then with a 100% folie-branding similar like here it is looking like new and also an eyecatcher and good permanent advertising - imagine this with 4 meter high blue-yellow TT-letters and "Lübeck 99:- SEK" or a big ferry-picture on the bus:
It is also possible to find a Co-Sponsor who pays the costs for the bus - these buses for a Water-Park f.ex. are paid from Pepsi... :
So maybe if TT would sell Pepsi onboard instead of CocaCola Pepsi would pay eventually a shuttle-bus... (?).
Also here it can be good to copy Fred Olsen where free buses from the main-city of the island to the harbours are normal... .
 

Risberg

Active Member
Unlike ropax I would prefer the ferry type of the 80's before a catamaran, no matter what the size. I think that "ferries", like the ones between Ystad and Bornholm or the SUPERSPEED ferries of the Color Line, lack any charm, connected to a ship journey. Utterly dull experiences, like riding a bus on the sea.

I share your hopes for the new Kristiansand – Emshaven route. Ferry routes between Norway and England have been started and closed, started and closed, again and again. Actually, when I went by the PRINCESS OF SCANDINAVIA from Gothenburg to Krisrtiansand more than half of the cars were leaving in Kristiansand, i.e. didn't continue to England.

Why on Earth should there be a shuttle bus between the port of Trelleborg and Malmö Central?! The port terminal is only one block from Trelleborg Central, from where trains go every half hour to Malmö!

I wouldn't find a bus ride at 99:- Skr from Travemünde to Lübeck very attractive (apart from that I in general hate prices ending on 9 or 99, it's just an attempt to fool the customer to believe that the price is not in fact 100:- Skr).
 

ropax

Member
With the buses there was a missunderstand - i mean an own TT-bus from Malmö Central to Lübeck Central (Hbf.) including use of the TT-ferry.
This would be a good service and connection, contemporary modern travel. Not any walking with big heavy baggages maybe in darkness, snowstorm or rain... not buying a new ticket for a local train or bus in an automat and nobody can understand and cash payment is not possible often in Sweden... .
F.ex. i would never book any connection with change to any train or walking to the bus-station in downtown of Trelleborg - but with a "Direkt-Ferry-bus" i would book it if i would be living in Malmö or Lübeck f.ex. .
And all this from 99:- SEK in the low-season for to get a ferry (with big Pax-capacity) full of shopping-cruise-people.
Viking Line and Eckerö Linjen are doing this system similar since decades, i remember a trip with Eckerö from Grisslehamn in low-season for 20:- SEK only and the ferry was totally full with people eating in the restaurants onboard. They have nearly no trucks but get the money from the restaurants and Tax-Free shoppers.
TT has a lot of money from the high number of trucks - but why not take also the money from mass of holidayfamilies and touristbuses in summer and swedish shopping-tourists in winter ?
In Germany many buscompanies have old pensionists as "part-time" busdrivers which only drive 1 or 2 hours a day f.ex. for collecting the travellers in some points in the early morning before the big bus-trip (f.ex. to Spain or Scandinavia) starts with the normal main-driver. Such a driver only from Malmö to onboard the ferry, than leaving the ship again walking before the departure and in Travemünde a german "Part-time-driver" goes onboard and drive the bus to Lübeck and back to the ferry again. This would be a good connection and would costs TT only "coffeebox-money" - and would be a very good advertising if it is a doubledeckbus with 100% outside-branding.
Is possible with a stabile ferry timetable so that the swedish driver goes onboard, drives to Malmö and then directly back to the ferry with the new passengers. So during the loading-times of the ferry it is possible to drive the bus to Malmö and back - the same on the german side to Lübeck (or to Rostock-Shoppingcenter). It is only 2 x 27min busdrive in Sweden and 2 x 18min in Germany (can be made an Extra-Stopp in the big Shoppingcenter Luv also if wished). In the canary islands the ferry buses drive up to more than 1 hour f.ex. from Santa Cruz to Los Cristianos - sometimes so many people that they need 2 or 3 buses in konvoi - everybody with a ferryticket get a seat in the bus.
Look here these pictures with airplanes "painted" (it is a folie) outside on a bus and think it would be a picture of the new big TTs Nils Holgersson which is arriving soon:
(7 big letters - the same as T T - L I N E)
1 cheap old doubledeckbus for the new NilsHo. and 1 bus for the new PeterPan, 2 x 2 old part-time busdrivers and TT could offer with every "main-departure" a free bus-service directly from Malmö Central to Lübeck Central... and has THE EYECATCHER in both cities... for a little bit "coffeebox-money".
Rent the seats inside the ferry-bus with advertising f.ex. for a shopping-center then a part of the bus-costs is free for TT...:

I have different times used Fred Olsen and was always very happy with this kind of ferries. I hope, that in the future will come more bigger Katamarans / Trimarans which more space for trucks also to Sweden / Norway. Maybe FRS-Baltic will start Rostock-Ystad also anytime in the next years ? They have "Tarifa Jet" now free available without any route... some spanish routes are closed now permanently. Frederikshavn-Moss/Frederiksstad would be also a good Katamaran-route in ca. 3 hours including full Tax-Free, maybe a good next step for Fjordline-expansion. I have often used Frederikshavn-Moss (Stena) in the 90ies with mostly Norwegians but also swedish people onboard - but then it was was closed.

The normal slowly ferries are full ok in the night if you sleep in a cabin - but f.ex. 6 hours daytime ROS-TRE ? There is nothing to do - just to sit in a full cafeteria on a normal chair with loud children and crying babies. And in fact you are then 6,5 - 7 hours onboard including loading times. I really don`t like Scandlines - but you save then many hours... . But with a Katamaran/Trimaran it would be a complete other situation... - also with the timetable, ROS-TRE the usually 8:00 departure is to early from Berlin, Hannover or Leipzig and if you take the 15:00 departure you are too late in the night in Linköping, Växjö or Västervik f.ex. . But a 11:00 and 15:00 departure with a 3-hours-Kat would be perfect for all sides (f.ex. Lillehammer/Gävle-München is possible then with the 15:00 departure in 1 day) and the morning- and evening- departures (7:00 / 19:00) can be filled with shopping-tourists.

With Göteborg-Norway-England i think the problem is, that british people to 99,99% are making holidays in the warm sunny south of Europe, and many swedish/norwegian people too. But for a smaller RoPax like f.ex. Stena Vinga it can be possible to find enough truck-customers and travellers like bird-watchers or fishing-people f.ex. .
 

Risberg

Active Member
TT has a lot of money from the high number of trucks - but why not take also the money from mass of holidayfamilies and touristbuses in summer and swedish shopping-tourists in winter ? Because it would cost more than they would earn. They couldn't offer their regular ticket prices – nobody would pay that for a shopping tour – but they would have to increase the number of staff and keep the restaurants and shops open during the entire journey (which they should anyway).

Holiday families with cars already use the TT-ferries.

And high speed costs. The energy consumption is increasing logarithmically with the knots.

And then TT-Line has another problem. They use their ferries so efficient and according to demand, that they change both departure times and ferries all the time. If you book early you often find yourself on another ferry and at another departure time than originally booked. You can do that to people using the ferries as a part of a long journey, but not to shopping/party passengers.

With the Scandinavia – England routes the problem is low price flights.
 

Risberg

Active Member
BTW: In the Trelleborg Central station you can choose between buying your ticket with credit card in a vendor machine or with cash in the kiosk, unlike the buses in Travemünde and Rostock, where have to have €uro coins.
 

ropax

Member
Mhmmm - yes - this is the story told from Stena and DFDS since ca. 25 years - to concentrate mostly in trucks and trailers and only accept the small number of "must urgent travel" people as Pax. And TT was following them... .
They have sold the 86/87ies built "Jumbo-Ferries" and demolished restaurants and cabins just from the 88/89 build HuckFinn and TomSawyer and the Pax shut down from 1000 (ore more) to 400 - also in combination with fear for the new Euroway-ferries which has started in the 90ies with very big Pax-capacity.
But now with 2 bigger newbuildings TT is coming little bit more in the right way of a good mix of Pax (800) and Trucks again.
So if we calculate per departure 200 Pax from the trucks, 50 from 1 touristbus and 400 Pax from 200 cars it could be a good mix... .
And still with enough place onboard theoretic also for 20/40/60 shopping-people from a TT-own Direkt-Ferry-bus Malmö-Lübeck... .

The actually TT-timetable is terrible - and i know that many people are thinking this also. So i hope that we from 2023 get a new better timetable again with mostly / often the same daily departure-times. And i hope that they will going faster again also, in the 80ies there was traveltimes with ca. 6 hours in summer TRA-TRE, then in the 90ies it was normally 7 hours, then 7:15, 7:30 - just today the NilsHolgersson is going with 13,6 knots only in 9 hours from TRA to TRE... then better directly with Finnlines to Malmö... .
The 2 newbuildings was recorded with a speed of 25knots during the trials - so theoretic TT could offer again from 2023 6 hours TRA-TRE and less than 5 hours ROS-TRE... for the daytime-departures - but i think they will not do this for to save fuel... (?).

But is it really better to have with a ferry only 2 slowly fuel-saving departures in 24 hours if 3 departures in 24 hours would be easy possible ?
Many days a week TT offers TRA-TRE 3 departures in 24 hours (ca. 9:30 / 15:45 / 22:00) with 3 ferries.
With ca. 9:00 / 16:00 / 23:00 (or 8:30 / 16:00 / 23:30 if you need 90 min loading-time) it would be possible these complete line to operate only with the 2 newbuildings and offer nevertheless much more truck- and pax-capacity than today - but then they need CIRCA 22/23 knots speed daytime, in the night it can be slowly as today.
So this would means more fuel-costs - but much less costs for crews and ships because of less number of ships is needed for to offer (minimum) the same capacity and timetable. The 3rd ship which is needed today can be used on another route (or sold). Lets hope, that TT is doing this, 1 ship less for a route means also ca. 70 crew-people less to pay year around and much less capital-costs if you need 1 ship less.
 

Risberg

Active Member
I hope you are right about the newbuildings.

We will hardly see the same timetable every day – then you would need three ferries just for the Trelleborg – Świnoujście route to avoid long docking times in the ports. But during the autumn they sort of had a timetable which at least repeated itself week by week, until one of them, often ROBIN HOOD, was so delayed that they had to start circulate the ferry departures.

They are in fact running faster than what the timetable says, because they underestimate the time it takes to unload and load especially ROBIN HOOD, PETER PAN, NILS HOLGERSSON and even NILS DACKE. Especially ROBIN HOOD seems to have great difficulties in emptying and reloading itself in less than three hours. HUCKLEBERRY FINN and TOM SAWYER on the other hand make it in one and a half hour, if they dock in ferry berth 2 in Trelleborg, where they loading facilities to the second deck (which NILS HOLGERSSON and PETER PAN also have in dock 10 (and 4), but still need three hours).

Another problem is, that as soon as one ferry is delayed, the whole scheme on f.x. Mondays and Friday afternoons, crack, as they can't meet going in and out of Trelleborg port.

For fun I made a more realistic timetable, assuming that the present NILS HOLGERSSON (which I call Oliver TWIST) and PETER PAN (GÖSTA BERLING) started to serve Świnoujście on a permanent basis but not assuming that the TT-Line would keep MARCO POLO (appologize for it being in German):

Trelleborg - Rostock
SKÅNE und MECKLENBURG-VORPOMMERN sowie NILS DACKE und ROBIN HOOD parallell:
Ab beide Häfen 9 Uhr, an 14 Uhr (Stena nur Mo-Sa)
Ab beide Häfen Sonntags Stena 10 Uhr an 15 Uhr
Ab beide Häfen 17 Uhr, an 22 Uhr (Stena nur Mo-Sa)
Ab beide Häfen 01 Uhr, an 6 Uhr (leider kurze Schlafzeit)

Trelleborg - Rostock - Travemünde
Neue NILS HOLGERSSON
Ab Trelleborg 10 Uhr, an Rostock 15 Uhr, ab 17 Uhr, an Travemünde 20 Uhr, ab 23 Uhr, an Trelleborg 7 Uhr
Neue PETER PAN
Ab Trelleborg 23 Uhr, an Travemünde 7 Uhr, ab 10 Uhr, an Rostock 13 Uhr, ab 15 Uhr, an Trelleborg 20 Uhr

Trelleborg - Świnoujście
WOLIN
Ab Trelleborg 4 Uhr Mo-Fr (wie heute), 2 Uhr Sa (wie heute), 8 Uhr So, an Trelleborg 1 Uhr 30 Mo-Fr (wie heute), 23 Uhr 30 Fr (wie heute), 4 Uhr So (wie heute)
GRYF
Ab Trelleborg 10 Uhr (wie heute), an Trelleborg 5 Uhr (wie heute)
COPERNICUS und GALILEUSZ
Ab Trelleborg 16 Uhr (ein Viertel Stunde später Mo-Sa und drei Stunden später So), 23 Uhr (eine Stunde später) So-Fr, an Trelleborg 9 Uhr 30 (etwa wie heute), 15 Uhr (zwei 1/4 Stunden früher)
OLIVER TWIST (heutige NILS HOLGERSSON) und GÖSTA BERLING (heutige PETER PAN)
Ab Trelleborg jeden Tag 8 Uhr, an Świnoujście 13 Uhr, ab 16 Uhr, an Trelleborg 21 Uhr
Ab Trelleborg jeden Tag Mitternacht, an Świnoujście 5 Uhr, ab 8 Uhr, an Trelleborg 13 Uhr
Ab Trelleborg jeden Tag 16 Uhr, an Świnoujście 21 Uhr, ab Mitternacht, an Trelleborg 5 Uhr

Klaipéda - Trelleborg - Travemünde
HUCKLEBERRY FINN und TOM SAWYER
Ab Travemünde Mo 1 Uhr 30, an Trelleborg 8 Uhr, ab 10 Uhr 30, an Klaipéda Di 1 Uhr
Ab Klaipéda Mo 1 Uhr 30, an Trelleborg 16 Uhr, ab 18 Uhr, an Travemünde Di 00.30 Uhr
Ab Travemünde Di 2 Uhr, an Trelleborg 08.30 Uhr, ab 11 Uhr, an Klaipéda Mi 30 Min. nach Mitterncht
Ab Klaipéda Di 3 Uhr 30, an Trelleborg 18 Uhr, ab 23 Uhr, an Travemünde Mi 5 Uhr 30
Ab Travemünde Mi 8 Uhr, an Trelleborg 14 Uhr 30, ab 17 Uhr, an Klaipéda Do 7 Uhr 30
Ab Klaipéda Mi 8 Uhr, an Trelleborg 22 Uhr 30, ab Do 1 Uhr, an Travemünde 7 Uhr 30
Ab Travemünde Do 10 Uhr, an Trelleborg 18 Uhr, ab 19 Uhr 30, an Klaipéda Fr 10 Uhr
Ab Klaipéda Do 10 Uhr, an Trelleborg Fr 30 Min. nach Mitternacht Uhr, ab 3 Uhr, an Travemünde 9 Uhr 30
Ab Travemünde Fr 21 Uhr, an Trelleborg Sa 3 Uhr 30, ab 8 Uhr, an Klaipéda 22 Uhr 30
Ab Klaipéda Fr 21 Uhr, an Trelleborg Sa 11 Uhr 30, ab 14 Uhr, an Travemünde 20 Uhr 30
Ab Travemünde So 00.30 Uhr, Trelleborg 7. Uhr, ab 9 Uhr, an Klaipeda 23 Uhr 30
Ab Klaipéda So 30 nach Mitternacht Uhr, an Trelleborg 15 Uhr, ab 16 Uhr 30, an Travemünde 23 Uhr

Dabei wurde in Trelleborg nur die Ankunft 16 Uhr Montags von Klaipéda mit der Abfahrt der GALILEUSZ/COPERNICUS und jeder zweiten Montag mit der der GÖSTA BERLING nach Świnoujście zusammenfallen, und der Segelplan ist realistisch betr. die Ladezeiten. Nur mußten die HUCKLEBERRY FINN und TOM SAWYER 20 Knoten laufen und die OLIVER TWIST und GÖSTA BERLING 19-20 Knoten (aber das müßen sie auch oft heute, weil sie verspätet bei der Abfahrt aber nicht so viel bei der Ankunft sind).

Before that I made an alternative timetable, where NILS HOLGERSSON/OLIVER TWIST would go to Gdynia instead (appologize for it being in Swedish):

Trelleborg - Rostock (82,3 sjömil, 5 timmar kräver teoretiskt >16 1/2 knop, med vändningstider <19 knop)
SKÅNE och MECKLENBURG-VORPOMMERN behöver uppenbarligen tre timmar i hamn, och märkligt nog ser det också ut att gälla NILS DACKE och ROBIN HOOD. Det ger tyvärr en kort nattresa. Stena och TT kör ganska parallellt, och kan lika gärna fortsätta med det.

Avgång bägge hamnar mån-lör 9.00, ankomst 14.00.
Avgång bägge hamnar sön 10.00, ankomst 15.00
Avgång bägge hamnar mån-lör 17.00, ankomst 22.00
Avgång bägge hamnar tis-sön 01.00, ankomst 06.00

Trelleborg - Rostock - Travemünde (122,1 sjømil)
Nya NILS HOLGERSSON
Avgång Trelleborg 10.00, ankomst Rostock 15.00, avgång 17.00, ankomst 20.00
Avgång Travemünde 23.00, ankomst Trelleborg 07.00
nya PETER PAN
Avgång Travemünde 10.00, ankomst Rostock 13.00, avgång 15.00, ankomst Trelleborg 21.00
Avgång Trelleborg 23.00, ankomst Travemünde 07.00
Trelleborg - Gdynia (224,4 sjömil, c:a 12 timmar med vändningstider)
OLIVER TWIST (nuv. NILS HOLGERSSON)
Avgång Trelleborg mån 18.00, ankomst Gdynia tis 06.00, avgång 9.00, ankomst 21.00
Avgång Trelleborg ons 00.00, ankomst Gdynia 12.00, avgång 15.00, ankomst tor 06.00
Avgång Trelleborg tor 09.00, ankomst Gdynia 21.00, avgång fre 00.00, ankomst fre 12.00
Avgång Trelleborg fre 18.00, ankomst Gdynia lör 06.00, avgång 09.00, ankomst 21.00
Avgång Trelleborg sön 12.00, ankomst Gdynia mån 00.00, avgång 03.00, ankomst 15.00

Trelleborg - Świnoujście (95,1 sjömil)
WOLIN, GRYF, COPERNICUS och GALILEUSZ kunde i stort sett behålla sina tidtabeller, bortsett från att morgonfärjan från Świnoujście borde korta sin liggetid där med två timmar och ankomma Trelleborg 15.00 istället för c:a 17.15, och WOLIN finge vänta med sin söndagsavgång två timmar till 08.00.
GÖSTA BERLING (nuv. PETER PAN, borde försöka gå 19-20 knop för att få 3 timmars liggetid)
Avgång Trelleborg hvarannan dag 08.00, ankomst 13.00, avgång 16.00, ankomst 21.00
Avgång Trelleborg hvarannan dag 00.00, ankomst 05.00, avgång 08.00, ankomst 13.00
Avgång Trelleborg hvarannan dag 16.00, ankomst 21.00, avgång 00.00, ankomst 05.00

Klaipéda - Trelleborg - Travemünde (280,6+122,1 sjömil, kräver 20 knops fart+vändningstider)
HUCKLEBERRY FINN och TOM SAWYER
Samma avgångstid från Klaipéda och Travemünde, bortsett från tisdag
Avgång Travemünde mån 01.30, ankomst Trelleborg 08.00, avgång 10.30, ankomst Klaipéda tis 01.00
Avgång Klaipéda mån 01.30, ankomst Trelleborg 16.00, avgång 18.00, ankomst Travemünde tis 00.30
Avgång Travemünde tis 02.00, ankomst Trelleborg 08.30, avgång 11.00, ankomst Klaipéda ons 01.30
Avgång Klaipéda tis 03.30, ankomst Trelleborg 18.00, avgång 23.00, ankomst Travemünde 05.30
Avgång Travemünde ons 08.00, ankomst Trelleborg 14.30, avgång 17.00, ankomst Klaipéda tor 07.30
Avgång Klaipéda ons 08.00, ankomst Trelleborg 22.30, avgång tor 01.00, ankomst Travemünde 07.30
Avgång Travemünde tor 10.00, ankomst Trelleborg 18.00, avgång 19.30, ankomst Klaipéda fre 10.00
Avgång Klaipéda tor 10.00, ankomst Trelleborg fre 00.30, avgång 03.00, ankomst Travemünde 09.30
Avgång Travemünde fre 21.00, ankomst Trelleborg lör 03.30, avgång 08.00, ankomst Klaipéda 22.30
Avgång Klaipéda fre 21.00, ankomst Trelleborg lör 11.30, avgång 14.00, ankomst Travemünde 20.30
Avgång Travemünde sön 00.30, ankomst Trelleborg 07.00, avgång 09.00, ankomst Klaipéda 23.30
Avgång Klaipéda sön 00.30, ankomst Trelleborg 15.00, avgång 16.30, ankomst Travemünde 23.00
 
Last edited:

ropax

Member
There is 1 point more:
The newbuildings will need less fuel for to go with the same speed than the Ferries from 2001 (or older) and maybe with LNG it is also cheaper than with ships-gasoil.
Puhhh - a lot of timetables... :)

I think that the departures TRA-TRE including a stop in Rostock are complete nonsense. This can only be a temporary "emergency-solution" until the newbuildings are in use. The traveltime TRA-TRE is then much to long and TT can offer only the half capacity from/to both harbours.
So a route TRA-TRE-Klaipeda can make sense, but not TRA-ROS-TRE.

3 hours for loading is much to much... - then i would try to find other solutions instead of TT, more or bigger ramps inside the ferries and in the harbour, bigger broad/wide of the ferry (the newbuildings has it in compare with the older ferries) that trucks can easy turn inside, more drivers in the port for to move the trailers etc. .

To Świnoujście i think a similar timetable as "my" timetable to Travemünde would be good. So if TT would have theoretic more money they could order now 2 similar new RoPax as the newbuildings but with less Pax-Capacity, ca. 500 instead of 800 for the SWI-line. And the actually old NH and PP from 2001 could then operate to Klaipeda and to new routes as f.ex. to Gdynia. The 5 oldest ferries from 1988/89, 93, 95/96 would then in 2025/26 (if these theoretic newbuildings would arrive) be 30 years old or older and could (latest then) leave the fleet.

And for ROS-TRE i see 2 new "so big as possible" fast ferries similar as these here as perfect solution:
- Optimised for a economic speed of only ca. 30/31/32 knots so that the travel-time ROS-TRE is ca. 3 hours or 3 hours 10/15min.
- And a little bigger and wider is possible to order, ca. 140m/150m x 34m = ca. 800 meter for trucks + ca. 300 cars + ca. 1000 Pax
(more cars possible with "hanging decks" on the truck-deck which has Fred Olsen f.ex.)
- the price for to buy a new Katamaran/Trimaran is much lower than for a RoPax
- the crew is only ca. 20-30 persons ! A Ropax needs ca. 60, 70, 80 normally... .
= so what TT would need to pay more extra in higher fuel-costs they would save a lot of money in personal-costs !
Then it would be in 2026 a modern 8-ships-fleet with the 2 oldest ferries from 2001.
And also a good attractive alternative to both Scandlines-Routes via Danmark and the new Fehmarnbelt-Tunnel... .
And Nils Dacke can stay as "docktime-replacement-ferry / heavy-storm-Katamaran-replacement ferry / extra-ferry on fullbooked days".
 
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