Gotlandsbolaget kjøper DFDS linjen mellom Oslo og København - Go Nordic Cruiseline

First a big surprise - but on the second view not.
TO DFDS:
DFDS has down-runned and / or closed all their former cruise-ferry-routes in the last decades sadly.
Also here from Norway - with full duty-free-extra-profits - there would has been 1000 chances, f.ex. to extend the route (with a little bit faster speed) to Rostock, start other new routes again to UK and Netherlands / West-Germany, new ferries for Copenhagen-Oslo could has been ordered years ago.
Years ago the attractive stop for the Swedes in Helsingborg was deleted - there was big potential if they would have own ferry-buses from Kristianstad, Malmö, Lund, Växjö, Halmstad etc. to the ferry.
Tallink f.ex. offers a 8-hours ferry-bus from Göteborg to their ferry-terminal in Stockholm - you can book Göteborg-Helsinki. Viking Line, Eckerö etc. all has many own ferry-buses.
Or in Frederikshavn too - why they have never tried own ferry-buses bringing old pensioners from Aalborg, Randers and Aarhus to an Oslo-cruise ? Especially Aalborg is relative big and close nearby Frederikshavn.
Then DFDS have deleted their former free ferry-bus to Copenhagen-City, operated the ships more slowly for to save fuel - but then instead of a full day for sightseeing, shopping or business-meetings it was only very short few hours still.
And the prices was rising up rising up rising up... - also onboard, restaurants with astronomic galactic high prices, why cost a buffet 40,- if a better bigger buffet incl. unlimited wine from cranes at Viking Line costs 25,- ? Not to pay for any people with normal job outside from Norway.

So now with the sales-price of ca. 50 Mio. Euro they have only got paid the rest-value of the both very old ferries (the very similar ferries Amorella and Isabelle was sold for 19-20 Mio. per ship) and a few things in port-infrastructure.
So ca. 20 Mio. for the 1989-built ship and 25 Mio. for the 1994-built-ship + 5 Mio. for all other things together (incl. customer-lists) is a realistic calculation.

Now DFDS has given away this unloved stepchild with 800 (!) expensive crew-members and office-staff - what is much much much too much crew and staff for to operate only 2 so small cruise-ferry-ships !
No wonder that then the profit from this route was maybe only super-small (we call it a "black 0") so that they have decided to sell the route when a buyer will knock at the door.
If this route in the actually condition would has been a "money-maker-route" the sales-price would has been much more higher.

Now the complete cruise-ferry-division will be closed inside the organisation-structure from DFDS.
They want continue only with logistics, freight-ships, freight-orientated RoPax and short-sea-ferries as Dover, Gibraltar - and MAYBE Channel Islands also if there will no other ferry-company give an offer... .
Question is what happens with the Newcastle-route where the ships are even older (soon 40 years old) as on this Copenhagen-Oslo route.
Officially they are planning with 2 RoPax-new-buildings with a similar size and capacity as the E-Flexer ferries.
But what happens if now for this route should maybe also a buyer knock at the door ?
The price for this Newcastle-route should be nearly nothing - these both very old ships has only the half of the rest-value of the Copenhagen-Oslo ferries... - but to/from Newcastle shall be much more freight.

So for now we must for Newcastle-Amsterdam believe in a downgrading ca. 2029 from the Cruise-ferries to new Ropax-ferries - if we have luck a little bit better than an E-Flexer.
In the P&O head-office with their competing Hull-Rotterdam route i can hear ringing the Champagner-glasses - they have just upgraded their ferries with SPA, Wellness-pool etc. for to offer more cruise-feeling.
Stena has just deleted their A-la-carte-restaurants and 2nd bar-cafe from their Harwich-Rotterdam-ferries - so P&O is now (hard to believe !) the "Big Comfort King" of all ferries at the UK East-coast.

TO GOTLANDSBOLAGET:
First compliment they have the idea to expand their business with cruise-ferries "west from Sweden".
Usually it can be only better in future... .
Let´s hope that they will in the next years
- go down with ticket-prices and onboard-prices.
- start own ferry-buses for to get especially in winter more pensioners onboard.
- order biggest attractive luxury new-buildings
Here is the chance to order new ferries together with Viking Line, their cooperation-partner with the Birka-Gotland ship.
If you order 4 cruise-ferries for 3000 + X people you will get a much cheaper price than if you oder only 1 or 2 ferries.
- extend the route to Rostock, would be easy possible, biggest Cruise-RoPax-ferries with 2 big truck-decks = 3400 lm.
CIRCA timetable to Rostock with Frederikshavn and 25 knots (ROS-COP-FRE):
14:40 from Rostock - 18:50 COP 19:30 - 1:00 Frederikshavn 1:20 - 8:30 Oslo 19:00 - 1:30 FRE 1:50 - 8:00 COP 8:40 - 12:50 Rostock
Would be super-attractive for Germans from Hamburg and Berlin-region (with own ferry-buses !) enjoying 2 nights onboard and a full long day in Oslo.
And in other direction - the Norwegians has a full day in Copenhagen - or can do a "fast-cheap-shopping" in Rostock if the ferry-company offers own shopping-bus to the big shopping-center nearby the port at the motorway.
Plus the "comfort-cruise-options" with 1, 2 hotel-nights in Berlin / Hamburg (or sure Rostock too) incl. own ferry-buses.

Yes, 25 knots on ca. 60% of the route-distance costs fuel - but therefore 1000-times more new customers - this timetable would be also very attractive for freight, cars, motor-homes, Caravans, tourist-coaches. For Norwegians, for Danish people and for Germans up down to Czech and Austria. Would be full 100% competition to Color Line (and Stena Line) from/to Kiel. 14:40 from Rostock - 8:30 in Oslo - why then book still Color Line (or any other ferry) ?
But how important is Frederikshavn today ? There was reports that only a few vehicles and persons goes in and out of the DFDS ferries there every night. So without Frederikshavn the ferries could operate more slowly with max. 23 knots:
15:10 from Rostock - 19:45 Copenhagen 20:30 - 8:30 Oslo 20:00 - 8:00 COP 8:40 - 13:15 Rostock (this last route-part with only 22 knots = + 12 min, with only 21 knots = + 22 min - would be also possible).
So i think that a route-extension to Rostock brings 1000-times more customers and money - than a few "night-customers" in Frederikshavn.

- and last point: Maybe Gotlandsbolaget will start also new Cruise-ferry-routes in future !
There are still very big ferry-route-gaps in North-Sea, f.ex.
North-UK - South-Norway, South-Norway - Emden (or Bremerhaven, Wilhelmshaven, Amsterdam etc.), HamburgCity - London or also South-Norway - South-UK/London.
Some of these routes was former DFDS-routes too.

So in summary we all can hope that in future Gotlandsbolaget will "follow" a number of my listed "hope-"points - than it would be a big win for people from all countries.
 
DFDS legger ikke totalt ned sitt "cruise"fergekonsept – de beholder det på ruten Newcastle – Ijmuiden.

Helsingborg var ikke en attraktiv avgangs- eller ankomsthavn for skåninger, fordi
1) fergeleiet i Helsingborg var meget utilgjengelig
2) fergen kom grytidlig til Helsingborg fra Oslo
3) når fergen forlot Helsingborg mot Oslo var de fleste restaurantbordene allerede reserverte
4) de fleste skåninger som reiser med den fergen kommer fra Malmö-området, og har meget enklere å ta seg til København enn Helsingborg, særlig i den periode, hvor fergen anløpte Helsingborg, fordi da fantes det fremdeles westamaraner Malmö – Nyhavn, ikke langt fra Kvæsthusbroen, hvor fergene fremdeles lå i København, selv de første år efter at Øresundsbroen var åpnet

Ombordprisene er stive, men det kan ikke sies om billettprisene. De ble kraftig senket i 2006, og er adskillig lavere enn f.eks. Color Lines Oslo – Kiel (hvor ombordprisene dog er lavere, så det er et enten-eller).

Sannsynligheten for at Gotlandsbolaget vil sette in nye luksusferger ser jeg som minimal – det var ikke det man satte inn på Nynäshamn – Visby – Rostock, eller en meget spartansk hurtigferge, med elendig cafeteria och busseter. Så finnes den ruten heller ikke lenger.

Men det skal bli interessant å se om de fortsatt vil anløpe Frederikshavn eller sågar korte ned ruten til en Oslo – Frederikshavn-rute. Det største mistaket DFDS gjorde var å korte ned liggetiden i de to havner, særlig København, hvor med ankomsttid 9.30 og avgangstid 17.00 det var en ypperlig forbindelse for dagsmøter i Ørestad, som imidlertid ble vanskelig med ankomsttid 10.00 og incheck 16.00.
 
DFDS has still actually an own cruise-ferry department - with own director, own financial possibilities, own statistics etc. - clear named also with 4 ships on 2 routes.
If you read the annually report is it clear divided between "1000" Ropax and freight-logistics routes and these both 2 cruise-ferry-routes OSLO-COP. and NEW-AMS.
Now one of this last both cruise-ferry is away from autumn and the Newcastle-route will be downgraded in short-term future from a cruise-ferry-route to a simply Ropax-route.
Therefore they hold this route also and will not sell them also.
Also all renderings and known info about the 2 planned newbuildings for Newcastle are showing a freight-orientated Ropax ferry with open after-section for dangerous goods, livestock etc. .
So there will be 3000-4000 lm and 200 - 300 cabins onboard - but it will have nothing to do anymore with a cruise-ferry - i am 100% sure they will be very similar as the E-Flexers - maybe as the Brittany Ferries with a few more cabins than the Stena E-Flexer.
So it is just the question in which year they will officially close their cruise-ferry-department and give the cruise-department-office-staff other jobs inside the DFDS group - maybe it will be around 2028 (= in 3,5 years) when the planned newbuildings for Newcastle shall be delivered.

To Helsingborg:
A stop there WOULD BE a good possibility for to get really a lot of swedish people onboard of a real cruise-ferry - but sure only with good well infrastructure (= f.ex. OWN FERRY BUSES) for potentially mini-cruise-people.
Think route A from Trelleborg via Malmö, route B from Ystad via Sjöbo, Lund, Landskrona, route C from Karlskrona, Ronneby, Karlshamn, Kristianstad, Hässleholm, route D from Varberg, Falkenberg via Halmstad and Ängelholm and E from Växjö via Alvesta, Ljungby and Markaryd.
It would be a Cruise-ferry-Monopol with the big potential of all people living in South-Sweden (circa south of or around Riksväg 25).
Realistic passenger-mix could be 45% Norwegians, 35% Danish, 15% South-Swedes and 5% from all other countries together.
Think Gotlandsbolaget would buy in future XXL cruise-ferries for 3000 Pax (as Viking Line plans the next ferry actually) - a stop in Helsingborg could bring easy a few hundred people daily more onboard.

I know that you really do not like any buses or coaches - but in meantime are 100% electric coaches very cheap available (f.ex. from China) - so the ferry-company would have MAINLY only to pay the costs for the bus-driver daily - and the coaches could be recharged very cheap onboard also.
The ferry- , tram- and bus-operator BOREAL f.ex. starts now an electric coach route Oslo-Trysil and Flixbus has already a number of electric routes started f. ex. in UK too.
bussmagasinet.no

Første ekspressbuss på strøm - Bussmagasinet

Boreal setter nå i trafikk landets første batterielektriske ekspressbuss. Det er Trysilekspressen som trafikkerer strekningen Trysil Oslo via Gardermoen, en
bussmagasinet.no bussmagasinet.no


So also from the cities in the Malmö-region it would be much cheaper for the ferry-company to operate own ferry-buses to Helsingborg - than to pay daily the high toll-fee for the Öresundbroen - including eventually delays because of passport-controls which happens very often expecially with long-distance- coaches / buses there, personally seen several times - all (german-registered) cars can continue directly - but all buses has long controls.
From Malmö-centralstation to Helsingborg-ferry it is only 42 min. I doubt that it would be significant faster to Copenhagen DFDS terminal.

And your points 1, 2, 3 - yes - showing other points (beside not to operate many own ferry-buses) what DFDS has made wrong in the past.
But for a new ferry-operator it would be easy to offer a better more attractive timetable and free seats in the restaurants also for the Swedes.
And the DFDS - prices, maybe they was a little bit lower one year etc. - but generally this DFDS-Oslo-Cop. route was an "upper-class-product". People with normal or small money are travelling with cheap flights or with Flixbus in 1 or 8 hours for 25,- Euro or less. And only people with big money can pay the very high DFDS-ticket- and onboard-prices.
Just to agree what is cheap:
Viking Line offers mini-cruises including cabin from around circa 30,-/40,- Euro only = 10,- or less per person if you travel with 3 family-members or friends.
We had onboard Viking Glory the really big and very good lunch-buffet with unlimited wine and beer from cranes for 25,-.
So similar prices as these can be called as cheap - but if the prices are much higher - as it was always the case with DFDS - we are anywhere between relative expensive, expensive, and very expensive only.

To Gotlandsbolaget - and their new Copenhagen-Oslo cruise-ferry-route:
Their managers have clear announced that they
- will in future go down with the prices ( - so we all can hope that this ferry-route will become cheaper in (long-term) future)
- will continue with all 800 staff and crew ( - would be complete nonsense with freight-orientated Ropax-ferries, 800 is also much too much for 2 cruise-ferries already)
- will expand especially in passenger-ferry-traffic ( - but no word about freight, logistics etc.)

And in my opinion they have learned that
- routes mainly parallel to land without many cabins onboard as it was the case on their Hansa-Destination route will not really work well
- they have learned a lot from their Birka-Aaland-Gotland cooperation with Viking Line (they have also own ferry-bus-routes to their own Dest. Gotland ferries now)
- they have a secret agreement with Viking Line that they will not expand anymore further "East of Sweden" - but
- they will copy many points of the Viking Line system on (future) ferry-routes "West of Sweden"

So if i would have money and it would be possible to bet on it -
if the Oslo-Copenhagen route for Gotlandsbolaget will be a success - then they will in long-term (ca. 8, 10, 12 years) maybe expand further "West of Sweden" with new (former DFDS-) ferry-routes to UK and Germany.

And with the kind of ferries - i am expecting 2 big cruise-ferry newbuildings for CIRCA 2500 - 3000 Pax AROUND the year 2030 - and not any kind of RoPax-ferries - freight-volumes are small there.
The route Oslo-Copenhagen can be similar successfully as Stockholm-Helsinki - if the ferry-company offers similar attractive low prices as Viking Line.
And Gotlandsbolaget has there attractive monopoly-situation also... .

Let`s wait a few years - i hope really that this DFDS-route will be then much bigger and better than today.
DFDS has not used parts of biggest customer-potential all the years, they had in the middle a few more than 900 Pax onboard per ship daily.
So if we think 2 people per cabin circa 50% of the cabins was empty daily. Therefore their former plans with the Hydrogen-newbuildings was only for max. 1800 Pax planned - significant smaller than the actually ferries.
But with ferry-buses, new modern attractive ferries and much cheaper prices and some other points made better and much more attractive - then these Pax-figures can be much much more bigger in long-term future.
 
Som vanlig en meget lang tirade fra ropax å besvare.

Det er jo ikke rederiet på København – Oslo som betaler passasjerenes billett over Øresundsbroen. Men fra Skåne gjelder en billett til København både på Øresundståget til Østerport og buss 26 derfra til Frihavnen (litt verre den annen vei, siden man ikke kan kjøpe billett til Skåne på buss 26, men må ta DFDS' buss (som de har begynt å ta betalt for) til Østerport for å kjøpe billetten der.

Og passkontrollene er ikke til Danmark, men av og til fra Danmark, og vil sikkert også bli introdusert i Helsingborg, hvis Gotlandsbolaget ville begynne å anløpe Helsingborg igjen. Den nye svenske regjeringen er meget fientlig innstillet til Skåne og forbindelsene Skåne-Danmark, redd for den konkurranse som "Greater Copenhagen" utgjør overfor Stockholm (hvis turistorganisasjon kaller seg "Capital of Scandinavia"!).

Siste gang som jeg reiste med DFDS mens de fremdeles anløpte Helsingborg var det tre passasjerer som gikk av landgangen der (og muligens et par biler), og vinden var så hard at de måtte ha taubåt for å anløpe. Lønnsomt? Neppe. Man sitter ikke på en buss fra Trelleborg eller Ystad til Helsingborg for å foreta en fornøyelsestur til Oslo.

Det hjelper jo ikke at det kun er 42 min. mellom Malmö C og Helsingborg C, når det er fullstendig håpløst å ta seg fra Helsingborg C til fergeleiet. Området hvor DFDS fergeleie var i Helsingborg er i tillegg under byutvikling.

Så Gotlandsbolaget skal både senke prisene å beholde alle de 800 ansatte? Veldig troverdig.

Og akkurat som ruten Rostock – Nynäshamn løper København – Oslo-ruten langs land, faktisk i enda høyere grad.

"similar successful as Stocholm – Helsinki"! Stockholm – Helsingfors-ruten har aldri hentet seg efter covid 19, og er slett ingen success lenger, på tross av at den slett ikke løper langs land.

ropax skriver langt og gjentar seg selv, men burde kanskje faktasjekke de faktiske forhold litt bedre.
 
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Anløpene til Helsingborg hadde vel i sin tid med subsidier å gjøre, ved at man var innom et 3 land - og ikke gods eller pax nytteverdi så vidt jeg erindrer.
 
Knut Lorentzen said:
Anløpene til Helsingborg hadde vel i sin tid med subsidier å gjøre, ved at man var innom et 3 land - og ikke gods eller pax nytteverdi så vidt jeg erindrer.
Click to expand...
Gjaldt detsamme rutene Göteborg – Kristiansand – Newcastle og København – Trelleborg – Gdánsk?
 
Det vet jeg ikke, dette er bare noe jeg har liggende langt bak i minnet. Kan jo være feil og - jeg er nok ikke like besserwisser og sikker på alt
som enkelte andre her er ;)
 
Be happy that here in this topic are 4 people writing and many hundred are reading ... :)

I think there will be no stop in future in Helsingborg if there is no free ferry-berth, a tug needed in strong winds etc. - but if we think f.ex. pensioners in Trelleborg - where can they enjoy a 1-2 nights mini-cruise ?
From Göteborg, Kalmar, Karlstad and Härnösand - so let`s say from half Sweden - Viking Line and / or Silja Line has own ferry-buses bringing the people DIRECTLY without any change to their ferry-teminals in Stockholm.
But all people living in Skane, Blekinge and Halland do not have this possibility (because it is too far to Stockholm) - so there is really a big "sleeping market" of cruise-ferry-customers.

And let´s take the example with pensioners living in Trelleborg.
If there would be a Helsingborg-Oslo cruise-ferry (with attractive timetable) the ferry-bus would offer a door to door connection from bus-terminal Trelleborg directly to the Oslo-ferry (not Helsingborg-Central) in Helsingborg.
Furthermore no extra ticket needed also, no walking around in rain or snow with luggage, baggage, no stairs up and down as usually at railway-stations, no waiting and lost time for any further bus- or train-connection etc. .
So this is a very easy and comfortable solution - and also possible for oldest people with rollators, scooters etc. (as i have seen people onboard from Viking Line).
But any solution with public train to Malmö-Hyllie - then change to the Öresundstrain to Cop.-Österport - then change to bus 26 - most people in Skane would not do such a complicate 3-steps-trip just for to reach a cruise-ferry.
And for this 80min train-trip i get 18,- Euro as one-way-price alone to Österport - compared with ferry-buses from other ferry-companies who offers their buses for free or much cheaper than 18,- for such a relative short distance.

For you it is ok - because you like trains and you know the train- and bus-connections very well also in Denmark - but how many other people in Trelleborg knows f.ex. the bus-route 26 in Copenhagen ?
So if Gotlandsbolaget is smart (and a stop in Helsingborg is not possible) they will offer own ferry-buses not only from danish cities on Zealand but also from the bigger cities in Skane to the ferry-terminal in Copenhagen.

"Så Gotlandsbolaget skal både senke prisene å beholde alle de 800 ansatte? Veldig troverdig."
This was said so in interviews around the route-sale between DFDS and Gotlandsbolaget. They are no politicians - so i believe it... . Maybe you are too pessimistic and sceptical ?
My speculation:
- They will not fill up again new pensioners with new young workers, so the number of staff and crew will go down in the next couple of years to maybe circa 600-700 - and later in the 30ies with new cruise-ferries down in direction of 500.
- They will "copy" the Viking Line system to get with cheaper prices more people onboard as in the past with DFDS.
There are on one side "more expensive" cruise-ferry-companies as Silja, Color and DFDS - and on the other side is Viking Line trying to sell so much cabins as even possible daily - if needed also for attractive cheap prices, better 100, 200, 300 cabins more sold for small money than to operate with CIRCA 45-50% empty cabins as actually on Copenhagen-Oslo.
Or in other words my future speculation: The Oslo-Copenhagen route will change now from the "expensive" DFDS-system for upper-class-people to a mass-cruise-ferry-system cheap and attractive for everybody also with smallest money.

Stockholm-Helsinki:
This ferry-connection is on a very good way again - the Pax-figures was raising up every year past Covid-19 with in summer often full-booked ferries so that also Viking Line has 2 biggest ferries there in operation again now.
This year the situation is less 100% full-booked (only 2.july at the moment) because there is a lot of "new" cabins for mini-cruise-people in the market with the former Birka-cruise-ship and also Tallink is moving back from Kapellskär to Stockholm with the Turku-route and has doubled the route Sto.-Tallinn again, also the new much bigger Finnlines ferries will be tested by some people etc. .
So especially the Swedes has a lot more mini-cruise-ships now to choose between = each ship will not be so much full-booked this year as in the last years.
But if you check daily the month of july f.ex. now (test-booking for 30 persons) - a lot of cabin-categories are already sold out. And f.ex. motorhomes are not possible to book anymore the complete month !
So i am sure that Viking Line will reach or pass in 2025 (or latest in 2026) on the Sto.-Hel. route the Pax-figure-level from 2019.

So let`s believe and hope a positive evolution of the ferry-route Copenhagen-Oslo, why not operate in 2032 or 2034 with 2 biggest newbuildings for 3000 people and f.ex. attractive 40,- Euro per cabin similar as Viking Line ?
Alone Flixbus has up to 10 double-deckers Oslo-Copenhagen daily = max. 800 persons. But who would pay in 2034 25,- to 40,- Euro for 8,5 hours in a bus - if it would work also for 20,- (if 2 people share a cabin) on a new luxury ship comfortable overnight ? Plus up to 6 buses from VyBuss4you, many trains and a lot of flights.
So for attractive modern cruise ferries with cheap ticket- and onboard-prices are a lot of travelers "to steal" in future from all other transport-systems.
I guess the managers from Gotlandsbolaget are thinking similar - and therefore they have bought this ferry-route - with high potential for future growing.
 
Jeg er selv pensjonist i Trelleborg og kunne ikke drømme om å sitte på en buss til Helsingborg, særlig ikke om Helsingborg – København-ruten ble omvandlet til et "mass-cruise-ferry-system". Og Skåne og Nordsjælland har et integrert billettsystem, så det er bare å gå ner på Trelleborg C og kjøpe en billet, med kredittkort, til København og få den enten som papirbillett eller i mobiltelefonen. Dette er ikke vanskelig for noen, og hvis det er første gang man reiser så er det veldig lett å finne ut av tog og busser på f.eks. Skånetrafikens hjemmeside: "Sök resa, från Trelleborg C, till Köpenhamn Frihavn". Men du har rett i at det er Verdens dyreste kollektivtrafikkbillett innen en storbyregion.

På fergerutene mellom Stockholm og Finland er det hovedsaklig finske pensjonister, som gjør minicruise, og de dør snart ut.

Når det gjelder Gotlandsblagets intensjoner så vet de enten ikke selv hva de har tenkt seg, eller så bløffer de. De vil aldri bygge to "cruiseferger" til Oslo – København-ruten. Gotlandsblaget har aldri hatt noe cruisestandard på sine ferger, og TT-Line trakk de seg temmelig raskt fra allerede mens det fremdeles var taxfree mellom Trelleborg og Travemünde og et "minicruise"marked.

Så vi kan gjerne håpe på en forbedring av Oslo – København-ruten, skjønt jeg tror ikke ropax og jeg har samme oppfatning av hva en forbedring ville innebære, men å tro på det gjør jeg ærlig talt ikke. Kanskje de setter inn to hurtiggående ferger med busseter og ussel cafeteria, og klarer på den måten å betjene både Frederikshavn og København.
 
Så er det verdt å merke seg, at efter at Gotlandsbolaget kjøpte Oslo – København-ruten, har de fått endelig beskjed om at de (eller deres danske datterselskap!) får fortsette å drive de statssubsidierte rutene til Gotland fra 2027. Jeg har en liten mistanke om at kjøpet av Oslo – København-ruten var en "backup", hvis de ikke skulle få det – det var lenge snakk om at den svenske stat selv ville ta over rutetrafikken til Gotland.
 
Fant denne

EU-reglerna gjorde att man måste lägga till i tre länder för att få sälja tax-free. Hade det inte varit för detta tror inte Jocke att båten någonsin skulle ha lagt till i Helsingborg.

”Det berodde på att inte Sverige var med i EU, och Norge var inte med i EU. För då sade
reglerna att om du skulle kunna få ha tax-free ombord, så var du tvungen att landa i tre olika
länder. Det var enda anledningen, enda anledningen varför de hade allt, gjorde allt, byggde
detta. Och gjorde sig besväret att krångla sig in här, backa, varför de körde in i piren flera
gånger. Det var bara för att kunna sälja tax-free ombord på Oslobåten. Sedan så ändrade
man reglerna, det kom någon ny regel någon gång. Och det hände faktiskt medan jag jobbade här, så det var ju fortfarande så att de lade till i flera år. Men så helt plötsligt var det någon ny regel, eller de gjorde någon förhandling, att de tog bort det här… Hade de kunnat välja, hade de ju aldrig stannat till här. Det tog ju orimligt mycket tid och jobb och bränsle för oerhört lite. Enda anledningen till att det betalade sig, det var ju bara för att det gjorde så att de kunde sälja tax-free.”
https://hplus.helsingborg.se/historien-om-oslobaten/
 
Ja, det må jeg si var en rar regel. Jeg trodde det var nok at man gikk til et land som ikke var med i EU (og man kunne jo ikke reise mellom København og Helsingborg). København – Trelleborg – Gdánsk-ruten fantes jo efter at Sverige var blitt medlem av EU (så man kunne ikke reise mellom København og Trelleborg heller) men før Polen var blitt det. Når Polen gikk med i EU hadde DFDS plutselig fergemangel, og de hadde jo slett ikke noe med det opphørte taxfree-salget å gjøre, at de lukket nettopp den leden.

Sandefjord – Strömstad-fergen(e) selger taxfree, og de har jamenn aldri anløpt tre havner!
 
Vi må kanskje ta høyde for at vedkommende som har skrevet dette ikke selv har helt forstått saken, men tror og synser - hva vet jeg. Som tidligere skrevet mener jeg å ha lest et sted
at dette dreide seg om subsidier av noe slag for å gå innom en 3. land på turen...men jammen om jeg er sikker. Uansett var det nok en spesifik grunn til at de gikk innom Helsingborg og
det var neppe pga pax eller cargo.
 
Danske myndigheter har aldri vært positive til taxfree-salg. Danske Statsbaner solgte ikke skattefrie sigaretter på Helsingør – Helsingborg-ruten før de fikk konkurranse av svenske LB-färjorna. Det tok laaang tid för "66-bådene" fikk selge taxfree mellom Rønne og Ystad, og det var ikke svenskene som forhindret det (men siden gikk Sverige med i EU og det opphørte igjen). Når DFDS prøvde å berge Ålborg – København-ruten i syttiårene ved å anløpe Helsingborg, i håp om å få selge taxfree, nektet danske myndigheter dem det, og ruten ble lagt ned.
 
I continue away from Helsingborg-Taxfree in this topic and answering to posts number 10 and 11 from Risberg, my post now here is number 16:
I think the difference between us is that i am generally positive optimistic thinking - and you are generally more pessimistic sceptical thinking - just the difference between a halffull and a halfempty glass of water.

From 2035 the Swedish state will self operate all ferries to Gotland - this is the actually plan.
Maybe there will come new transport-ministers or governments and will change this plan again - but for now this is the plan and also that a change to state-operation is super-stupid in my opinion will does not matter.
So Gotlandsbolaget can close and finish their ferry-business then - or continue on any other ferry-routes - if they have any other routes.

So it was logical to look for other possible routes - new ones as Nynäshamn-Rostock - restart the Birka-cruises - or now to buy etablished routes if there is a chance - as now Copenhagen-Oslo.
The price of around 50 Mio. Euro was a good deal - this amount is only minimal more than the actually value of the both ferries - so they have got a "1000" years old - in Denmark and Norway very known - monopoly-ferry-route between 2 big Metropol-regions nearly for free.

I think we should see Gotlandsbolaget generally a little bit more positive:
- They operate their ferries with much faster speed than nearly all other ferry-companies.
- They have a young fleet, order new-buildings in time and not in last minute or too late after many breakdowns as most other ferry-companies.
- They start new routes, which other ferry-company has started or taken over in the last few years 3 new routes (Nynäshamn-Rostock, Birka-Aland-Gotland, Oslo-Copenhagen) ?
And Nynäshamn-Rostock was closed again because too less freight-customers could be aquired. But what has Color Line, DFDS, Stena, Fjordline etc. done in the same last years in point of new ferry-routes ?
Why they do not try to fill the big white North-Sea-area ferry-route-gap between UK, Norway, Sweden, Germany and Netherlands ? Because all their managers do not have the courage to start any new passenger-ferry-route there.
So this is a normal business-process to test how a business-concept is working in A, B or C. And if it only in B and C works well, then A will be closed again. Similar as their on own costs operated former fast-ferry-route Västervik-Visby.
The managers from Gotlandsbolaget have the courage to try something new in the passenger ferry sector - and we should see that as a positive thing.

Yes - the standard, food etc. to Gotland is "very basic" only - but it is also for ca. 3 hours onboard only - and they are offering there what the tender-process has wanted.
And they operate unsolicited f.ex. the additional night-round-trips in summer on own risk. This year they have started own ferry-buses, also from Oskarshamn to Växjö, which even I consider to be very brave.
So the Swedish state is indeed super-stupid to operate all this self in long-term future - instead of to choose between Gotlandsbolaget, Molslinjen and others the best company as operator.

Until 2035 there will be to Gotland the both 2019 built big fast Ropax plus 1 newbuilt Austal Catamaran Horizon X as 3rd ferry (delivery shall be 2027/28).
So from 2027/2028 they will have 2 big fast Ropax free available (built in 2001) and from 2035 the above named 3 ferries.
But all these ships can have nothing to do with Copenhagen-Oslo. I am sure therefore they will order 2 biggest cruise-ferry-newbuildings. They see the really big passenger-potential on this route.

Just a short compare for the travel-corridor Oslo-Copenhagen:
Example for sunday 4.aug. - one-way - 1 person:
A) 17 flights (SAS, Norwegian, Wideroe, Air Baltic) x 180 seats = 3060 seats --- Tickets costs 45,- - 75,- (+ 1 x 145,-) Euro (without baggage / luggage)
B) 9 Flixbus x 80 seats = 720 seats --- Tickets costs 41,- - 67,- Euro
C) 6 Vybuss x 60 seats = 360 seats --- Tickets costs 41,- - 50,- Euro
D) 4 trains with 1 x 55min-change and 27 (!) stops (IC + Regional train) --- Tickets costs 75,- - 115,- Euro
E) 1 DFDS-ferry - 930 cabins --- Cheapest ticket incl. cheapest cabin costs astronomic high 227,- (3.aug.) and 185,- Euro (4.aug.)

So beside 1000s of cars, motorhomes, caravans, tourist-coaches, motorbikes and trucks driving on the E6 + Öresundslinjen Helsingborg-Helsingör there is a really big passenger-potential daily -
PLUS on top all the possible mini-cruise-people from both sides.
But because of their much too expensive prices DFDS is definitely "not in the market" - absolute no travel-option for the biggest majority of people with normal or small money - not competitive with any other travel-solutions.
Also strange that at the strongest travel-days of the year at the first weekend in aug. (nearly all 500 Mio. Europeans have only then holidays together) still nearly all cabin-categories are possible to book !
Why they hold such super-expensive prices and operate also on strongest travel-days not well booked ???
Sadly this DFDS-route was over all the decades a route for "upper-class-people" only, sailing in style with finest luxury dining onboard, award winning service etc. - but much too expensive for the big majority of people.
Similar as Cunard-cruises f.ex. - the 1% rich people like them - but the 99% others can only book with their money any biggest cheap mass-cruise-ship from Costa, AIDA, MSC, RCCL etc. .

And this can only become better with Gotlandsbolaget in future, if they press down the costs and offer much cheaper prices then much more people would travel with this ferry also.
And also with the speed - DFDS is operating really slowly - dep. in Oslo is 15:00 ! When Gotlandsbolaget would operate with more speed and dep. f.ex. 18:00/19:00 the route would be much more attractive for all customer-groups up to business-traveler using today the flights. Meetings in Copenhagen up to 16:00/16:30 ? Why then take a flight back to Norway, the day is in fact finished. Especially for Singles without family then a night enjoying restaurants, bars and entertainment onboard of a new faster cruise-ferry is much more attractive than arriving at home in Oslo late evening for just only go to bed. But arrival-time must between 8:00 and 9:00 then and dep. time not before circa 18:00/19:00.

So today the Airlines together has (beside the E6) with 17 flights between Oslo and Copenhagen the biggest market-share - but it is really strong competition with ca. 15 daily long-distance-buses from 2 operators which are first choice for all travelers with big baggage, luggage, sports-equipments, music-instruments, bicycles etc. . Not random that the most flights and buses costs between 40,- and 50,- in this 4.aug. example. Sure, on the paper the flights are much faster - but not to forget all the extra-time and extra-costs for traveling to Gardermoen or Torp-Sandefjord and on the other side to/from Kastrup to city-center. So from city-center to city-center including waiting-times, security-checks etc. is not possible much faster than in 4 hours - and the totally costs will be higher than with all buses. Yes - the fastest bus need 8:05 hours - but offers much much more comfort also, glass-roof, foot-rests, sleeping-seats, 4G, working-table etc. and you can book business-class also on upper-deck front for ca. 10,- extra, front-row-seats, 2+1 seats etc. . Modern buses from today has not anymore much to do with old buses from our school-times. And in low-season or with very early booking all these ticket-prices for flights and buses are lower, starting between 20,- and 30,-. Picture shows the upper-deck-Business-class from VyBuss Oslo-Göteborg-Copenhagen:
 
and here it continues with part 2:

Even not really in the market are the trains with a really poor and much too expensive offer and same long travel-times of more than 8 hours as the long-distance-buses. Sitting there with 27 intermediate-stops - maybe with crying school-group-kids running through the cars - and 1 change-hour in Göteborg is only a travel-option for train-lovers. I am sure that the most people in these trains are travelling only from a village / small-town to Göteborg or Copenhagen - but not all the way 8:15 hours from Oslo to Copenhagen. If the railways would offer a non-stop-direct-train a travel-time around circa 6:30 hours would be possible and with cheap ticket-prices a lot of bus-traveler would book the train - but actually most not flying people prefers the buses. 8 hours in ICE from Kiel to Munich costs 17,90 - with similar cheap prices a direct-train Oslo-Copenhagen would be very popular.

So Gotlandsbolaget has all options in future - if they would copy the cheap Viking Line mass-system with cabins including ticket for 35,- - 40,- € one-way or mini-cruise and normal instead of overpriced restaurant-prices - then they could easy circa double in long-term (10, 12 years) the actually passenger-figures of 700.000 per year with 2 new-buildings with 1000 cabins and maybe 200 sleeping-pods or pullman-seats. Alone Flixbus operates 3 over-night-buses, but sleeping in a seat on a cruise-ferry is better than in a narrow bus. But this is only possible with a cheap "mass-cruise-ferry-system" - such an attractive transport- and travelsystem for everybody will "steal" easy not less passengers from all flights and buses.

Furthermore they are then present in the 3 ports - why not try any other routes also in future ? F.ex. a triangel-route Göteborg (when the new port is ready)-Frederikshavn-Langesund/Larvik/Sandefjord ? "Steal" with 1 new route customers from 3 other ferry-companies (Stena-, Color- and Fjordline). Would work over day also with a fast (their ferry Visborg was just yesterday recorded with 28 knots in use for Balearia) former Gotland-ship or from 2035 with the new Horizon X Catamaran. Oslo-UK, Oslo-Amsterdam, Oslo-Bremerhaven/Emden, Copenhagen-Gdansk etc. - "1000" new future-routes are thinkable. My favourite would be an extension of the Oslo-cruise-ferry-route via Copenhagen to Rostock - and Frederikshavn could be a part from any other new route instead - there then maybe also with normal Ropax-ships without cruise-ferry-standard.
 
Oj, her var det meget å gripe fatt i. ropax sin nummerering av våre innlegg skjønte jeg ikke, men det spiller heller ikke så stor rolle.

Jada, jeg er nok adskillig mer skeptisk enn ropax, muligens fordi at jeg er eldre og ikke har notert særlig mange positive forandringer i dette århundrede – de eneste jeg kommer på er åpningen av jernbanen til Darwin i 2004, åpningen av jernbanen til Lhasa i 2007 og gjenåpningen av lokaltogtrafkken mellom Trelleborg og Malmö efter 43 år i 2015.

Hva gjorde Gotlandsbolaget når det var Gotlandslinjen (Nordström & Thulin) som drev fergene til Gotland? Var det da de kjøpte den svenske delen av TT-Line?

ropax misbruker ordet monopol en smule, DFDS har ikke monopol på ruten Oslo – København, men de er alene om å drive den.

Nynäshamn – Visby – Rostock var statssubsidiert (på gale grunner, dessuten). Birka – Åland – Gotland?! Hva er det for rute? Birka er et ubebodd, arkeologisk sted fra vikingtiden, og noen rute i reel forstand Stockholm – Mariehamn – Visby har de ikke avisert. Nynäshamn – Visby – Rostock ble lukket fordi statssubsidiene falt bort.

Så sauser ropax sammen Color Line, DFDS, Stena og Fjord Line. Color Line, og der antar jeg at vi er enig, har tvertimot bekvemt trukket seg tilbake til en nisje; hurtigferger til Hirtshals og (kanskje Skandinavias beste) cruiseferger Oslo – Kiel, ved å legge ned Larvik – Moss – Frederikshavn, Oslo – Hirtshals og Bergen – Hirtshals. DFDS har faktisk prøvd seg på både Bergen – Newcastle, Göteborg – Kristiansand – Newcastle, Göteborg – Harwich og Esbjerg – Harwich, men gitt opp, og der kan jeg også være enig med ropax i at det er litt giddesløst. DFDS har alltid brukt vikarierende motiv: København – Trelleborg – Gdánsk ble lagt ned pga. mangel på tilgjengelige ferger, akkurat da Polen gikk med i EU og de ikke kunne selg taxfree lenger. Esbjerg – Harwich ble lagt ned pga. nye utslippsrestriksjoner i Nordsjøbassenget(?). Men da hadde man suksessivt "bygget ned" linjen med manglende togtilknytning til havnen i Esbjerg, kjedelig ropax-ferge DANA SIRENA>SIRENA SEAWAYS, som erstattet DANA ANGLIA>DUKE OF SCANDINAVIA, som pussig nok var den de satte inn mellom København, Trelleborg og Gdánsk. I Esbjerg ble terminalen rent ut sagt djævlig til slutt, hvor ventende passasjerer måtte sitte i trappene. Med brexit kunne de jo ha solgt taxfree på Esbjerg – Harwich. I Harwich var der direkte tilknytning til tog til London, men nu har de visstnok flyttet ruten till Esbjerg – Immingham, en ren ro/ro-havn uten kollektivtrafikktilknytning. Stena, som hadde som policy å kjøpe opp alt som fløt for at ikke andre skulle få tak i det, endret plutselig policy under pandemien, og la ner både Trelleborg – Saßnitz-ruten og Oslo – Frederikshavn, nettopp med covid 19 som begrunnelse. Til saken hører jo at Trelleborg – Saßnitz-ruten la de ned avgang for avgang, der var fem daglige avganger, når de overtok i 2012, så fire, så to, så en, og siste vinteren, 2019/20 ikke en daglig avgang en gang, men tre i uken. Fjord Line er jo et relativt nytt rederi, så alle deres ruter må vel betegnes som nye. Trist at de ga seg på Sandefjord – Strömstad, for meg er det ufattelig at Color Line var mer populære på ruten enn dem. Deres ferge var adskillig mer trivelig enn COLOR VIKING, deres taxfree-tilbud var adskillig bedre, og deres cafeteria likeså. Color Line ødela en veldig koselig rute, drevet av Scandi Line, med BOHUS og SANDEFJORD, og særlig en sommerseilas på soldekk med SANDEFJORD, med grillmat og billig øl, var veldig hyggelig – det forsvant når Color Line tok over, SANDEFJORD ble erstattet med ærverdige gamle NIELS KLIM, som Stena fullstendig ødela innvendig før de solgte henne til Color Line, som fulgte opp ødeleggelsen med stive ølpriser og å kalle pølse i brød for "Chef Gourmet Meny"! (I tillegg solgte Color Line SANDEFJORD til et rederi, bl.a. eiet av handicaporganisasjonene i Norge, som skulle bruke fergen på en ny rute Moss – Skagen, samtidig med at de sendte en liste på 200 punkter med mangler til sjøfartsinspeksjonen, slik at Moss – Skagen-ruten kom igang ett år efter planlagt oppstart, og rederiet gikk konkurs.) Men Fjord Lines rute Bergen – Hirtshals er jo aldeles udmerket, det triste er bare at i Hirtshals er de (også deres Kristiansand - ferge og Smyril Line til Tórshavn og Seyðisfjörður) forvist til en terminal, som man må ta en dyr drosje til, om man er landgangspassasjer – der er simpelthen ikke gangadkomst dit.

Helt enig med ropax i at det supertåpelig av den svenske stat å selv begynne med fergedriften til Gotland, fra 2035, hvis det er tilfelle. Hvis den svenke stat vil leke reder igjen, bör de ta over jernbanefergene mellom Trelleborg og Rostock, de er en viktig del av europeisk jernbaneinfrastruktur, men Stena vil ikke bygge nye jernbaneferger, hvis de ikke får statstilskudd. Særlig med Sveriges inntreden i NATO har den ruten blitt enda viktigere. Og kanskje burde de gå inn å gjøre detsamme med Ystad – Świnoujście, som nu har fått jernbanetilknytning igjen (den var kuttet i noen år i Świnoujście), men hvor det rederi som drev jernbanefergene, EuroAfrica, ikke har noen jernbaneferger igjen, men har begynt å konsentrere seg om ro/ro-, ikke ro/pax-, ferger Trelleborg – Świnoujście.

ropax sin vurm for en masse busser histen og pisten gidder jeg ikke å kommentere mer. Den eneste europeiske buss, som jeg har kjørt i og som var noenlunde komfortabel, var Sogn og Fjordaneekspressen, men det hjelper ikke hvor komfortabel selve bussen er – bussens kjøremønster, særlig rundkjøringene, som Statens Vegvesen og svenske Trafikverket er så forbannet glad i, gjør enhver bussreise ukomfortabel.
 
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ropax said:
Also strange that at the strongest travel-days of the year at the first weekend in aug. (nearly all 500 Mio. Europeans have only then holidays together) still nearly all cabin-categories are possible to book !
Click to expand...
500 millioner europeere har kanskje ferien sin i august, men de 20 millioner skandinavene har det ikke – de har deres ferie i juli. Oslo – København-ruten er i høy grad en innenskandinavisk rute – hvorfor skulle man dra fra Kontinentet til København for å reise til Oslo, da er det jo adskilig enklere å ta Kielfergen til Oslo.
 
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Jo - but in my calender skoleferie in Norway and Denmark are going up to 11./19.august.
And in the biggest "neighbor-market" Germany 100% of the people has holidays only 29.july-31.july and nearby 100% up to 4.aug. .
The last july-week and first aug.-week are usually the strongest travel-weeks and most booked weeks everywhere, most visitors in holiday-/leisure-parks, biggest traffic-jams on motorways, longest control-times at borders etc. .
And especially between big capital-cities also a lot of "Travel Around Europe people" from Asia, America etc. are traveling especially in these best summer-weeks - after ends of university-years in first or scond week of july, end of school-life in june etc. . They are staying typically 2 or 3 nights in Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki etc. .

All these people can not take the flights - because they have XXXL baggage usually - but a new ferry-operator could easy "steal" these people out of buses and trains - if the ticket-prices would be very cheap - and maybe also cheap options as sleeping-pods or pullman-seats would be available. I remember my first ferry-trip to Finland in the 80ies on the brandnew Silja Festival (or their name was still Svea or Wellamo if i remember right) in summer - all cabins was booked already but we have got also a kind of sleeping-pods there - not perfect, but cheap - and especially for younger people full OK - it was on top free included in a kind of a Nordic-Interrail-ticket. Sure the Viking-Line-system with cheapest cabins for all is even more better - but instead of to force really a lot of traveler inside buses any solution with sleeping-pods on ferries would work well. There is really no reason for any ferry-company to send away all these traveling people and force them to book a bus (or a train).
Alone that there are today operating 15 (!) big double-deck-coaches daily between Oslo and Copenhagen is a big shame for DFDS !
Flixbus has started routes in Scandinavia ca. 3, 4, 5 years ago only - so here is easy to see the big traveler-potential DFDS has not seen / wanted / used / got !
Why pay 3,35 € for a DFDS-Shuttle-bus in Copenhagen to the Oslo-ferry if the direct-express-bus to Oslo costs 25,- ?

But because DFDS (and Color Line Kiel-Oslo similar) are MUCH MUCH too expensive compared with other travel-solutions as f.ex. the long-distance-buses they have many many cabins empty also in these strongest summer-weeks !

And with Gotlandsbolaget - i think their managers today are not the same as in last century with Nordström and Thulin.
A) - They have tried Nynäshamn-Rostock (yes, with some state-support - but i think they have made not really profit with this route)
B) - They have tried Västervik-Visby on own risk with the Gotlandia II fast-ferry a few years ago in summer
C) - They offer since years now on own risk (cheaper) additional night-roundtrips to Gotland in summer, we had self used such a 1:00 dep. in Nynäshamn for the OK-price of ca. 77,- Euro for 2 Pax including car. Interesting point: This night-departure (much cheaper than the day-departures) was to 90% full by young foot-travelers in backpacker-style and young couples in motorhomes.
D) - They have started new own ferry-bus-routes this year (Gävle/Västeras/Stockholm/Växjö-Gotland)
E) - They have renovated and started with the former Birka-cruise-ship "Gotland-Aalandia-Cruises" in cooperation with Viking Line
F) - They have bought the relative down-runned and totally overpriced DFDS route Oslo-Copenhagen for to make the route better again
(What would has been any other option ? Alone the low sales-prices explains that there was no other ferry-companies interested in this route... - maybe we can say also that Gotlandsbolaget has saved this ferry-route before closing ?)

So in summary all these points was / are more positive than negative for normal traveler, even if some of the points as A) and B) in meantime are already finished or closed again.
I doubt also that they will get a ferry-bus from Växjö to Gotland full - but they try it - for the advantage of the traveler - that`s the positive point.
And there is also not all perfect onboard on the ferries to Gotland, food / meals f.ex. are partly poor and very overpriced, TV-screens was better in the 90ies, not all Pullman-seat-lounges open etc. .

But Gotlandsbolaget is trying something new - and it is for passengers, for travelers also - not only or mainly for freight.
And if the other ferry-companies would thinking and doing it similar - trying and starting new and more passenger-orientated-ferry-routes - then there would exists a lot more attractive ferry-connections in Europe.
Just a shame f.ex. that only any private investors in Norway and Netherlands are trying to restart a new Holland-Norway-Line in the next years. This ferry was very well booked - with expensive ticket-prices - so why no etablished ferry-company is starting such a similar monopoly full duty-free ferry-route ? If i would have money i would bet that Gotlandsbolaget is starting any new route anywhere "South-West of Norway" in future - before Color, Fjordline, Stena, DFDS, TT etc. are thinking about it only.

Random found an actually interesting video about this DFDS ferry (watched an E6 Flixbus-frontseat to Oslo - then it came as ads) from the youtube-traveler "Window-seat" - showing very well the true DFDS ferry-reality onboard today.
On websites and in catalogues are pictures from luxury cabins (looking like normal hotelrooms) and luxury restaurants, hot tubes, upper class people in expensive clothes etc. - but in reality there are many empty spaces and closed areas onboard (plus seasickness). Why they do not use the hot-tubes ? In Germany in every city are very very well especially in winter used "Sauna-Therme" leisure-swimming-areas where you can get a seat in an outdoor-hot-tube-pool only with luck also in coldest rainy / snowing / freezing winter-weather because there are so many people. Also here this example shows: This ferry could be very easy super-popular - but DFDS is not using the chances and possibilities ! Only a restaurant, bar and a Bingo-game is much too less as attraction onboard.
And the normal people onboard has only money for the smallest inside sleeping-box (90,- € incl. breakfast one-way - also this is sadly not cheap - therefore is the ship relative empty and the buses on the E6 are full) and a poor overpriced Pizza on an orange small plastic-staple-chair looking as in 1973... .
The relative old ship is still looking full OK - but DFDS don`t know how to fill it daily with masses of people - but 3000 are sitting in the flights and 1000 in the buses... .
I guess that Gotlandsbolaget will change some things in future - so we can then later compare it with the "DFDS-times":

 
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